Curse

Mordakai · Jan 18, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

[I]--TOTALLY OFF TOPIC--
Mordakai, have you run Deadmines yet? I am curious to find out what you think of the instanced part of WoW. When it "works", instancing in WoW can be very very good. It's just getting it to work that was always a problem for me. Like getting all the planets -- time, people, etc. -- to align in a particular way. Van Cleef and his crew, well, it's a fun dungeon. Good luck with it, if you haven't already been. And bear in mind that after killing many of the bosses a patrol sneaks up on your group from behind.

I don't think it's off topic at all, since much of this conversation is about PUGs, soloing, and AI Henchies.

No, I have not, partly because I haven't bothered to find a group yet! I plan to this weekend, and I must say, how it works out may heavily influence my decision to stick with WoW. So far, I have a level 21 Hunter, and the game (even the part of Deadmines BEFORE the Instance), has been pretty easy, as long as I pull carefully. But I'm curious to find out:

a) how hard getting a group is

b) if it will be as bad as a GW pug

c) how respawning effects instance play.

I already know to get my Hearthstone set at the nearby inn, so I won't have to fight my way OUT of the mines after I kill the main boss! (Still find that a rather lame design flaw - you should have the option to leave the Dungeon after you complete it, right?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It depends on what the emphasis of the gameplay is, I guess. Bioshock has few RPG elements into it but it mostly just feels like a (very kick ass) shooter. Mass Effect has a very deep character creation and customization system so it feels more like an RPG.

So, if it focuses more on player skill and blowing stuff up, just a shooter. The more deep you get into customization and advancement, the more it becomes an RPG.

I was talking more about online shooters like the new CoD I believe (one of those anyway), where you actually advance your character like an RPG while still behaving like a multiplayer FPS.

I believe the advancements are permanent, but could be wrong.

Isileth · Jan 18, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Ah, OK. The fact I never even knew that kind of reinforces my point I don't think many people care about the technical differences between a MMORPG or CORPG.

Which also reinforced my point that just because someone isnt aware of it doesnt mean it isnt so.

While the average player might call GW a MMORPG or Tribes an FPS that doesnt make them those things. They fit better into their actual genres of CORPG and FPS-Z.

Now its not a big deal, but when people start arguing something on the basis that GW is a MMORPG its just something that needs pointing out.

Bryant Again · Jan 18, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

a) how hard getting a group is

b) if it will be as bad as a GW pug

c) how respawning effects instance play.

a) It's pretty popular in itself, and even more so thanks to twinks (endboss drops good twink gear)

b) Greatly depends. In my experience, I've found them to be much nicer in WoW as opposed to Guild Wars. In GW you have nothing to lose but time.

c) Respawning how? Like player death-respawning or monster respawns? Because it takes a *long* time in earlier instances (hell, I think *all* instances) before you get hit by respawns. Don't expect anything to pop-up while you guys are doing well. If you're dying a lot...maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I already know to get my Hearthstone set at the nearby inn, so I won't have to fight my way OUT of the mines after I kill the main boss! (Still find that a rather lame design flaw - you should have the option to leave the Dungeon after you complete it, right?)

There's an exit behind the ship you can go to after you kill the end boss. This is true for most instances. (well, the exit part, not the ship part.)

It isn't too much of a concern for me later on since I usually have a mage in my group. Of course, it depends.

Mordakai · Jan 18, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Which also reinforced my point that just because someone isnt aware of it doesnt mean it isnt so.

While the average player might call GW a MMORPG or Tribes an FPS that doesnt make them those things. They fit better into their actual genres of CORPG and FPS-Z.

Now its not a big deal, but when people start arguing something on the basis that GW is a MMORPG its just something that needs pointing out.

I understand what you are saying. But to me, it's like broad genres and sub-genres.

Ie, a Band is labled as Rock, Alternative, Country, etc, when it might share characteristics, or it's fan base may disagree.

These things are labled for ease of communication. The general public does not care if Unreal Tournament 4 is a FPS or FPS-Z. PCGamer is not going to describe it as a FPS-Z.

Same thing with Guild Wars. The media called it a MMORPG, it's constantly compared to other MMORPGs, etc., despite your, mine or Anet's protests.

Anyway, this whole discussion is going off track, and I think we're saying the same thing anyway, just from different perspectives. So, I'll leave it at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

There's an exit behind the ship you can go to after you kill the end boss. This is true for most instances. (well, the exit part, not the ship part.)

It isn't too much of a concern for me later on since I usually have a mage in my group. Of course, it depends.

Well, that's good to know! Looks like I was misinformed. Thanks!

Jaceb · Jan 18, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

@mordakai: (WAY .. offtopic , sorry!). Yeah the alliance & horde sides early instances are quite popular and people dont stress too much at those levels

. The holy-trinity doesn't need to exist either (holy priest-tank-dps) yet as people play the funny specs. At 40 things start to get a little more serious though (Scarlet Monastery etc) but still everyone can play the spec they like.

The good thing is Anet can "learn" from gw/wow/lotro and war too - its a bonus. Dont have to copy their features but research them instead. Global quests(questing in general, lets not hunt monkey hairs please that have 0.00001% drop rate :P), dungeons? ,looking for group - solutions, banking/guild banks, auction houses etc. I wouldn't yet worry too much

tmr819 · Jan 18, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But I'm curious to find out:

a) how hard getting a group is

It depends. Deadmines is better than many of WoW's dungeons in the sense that the instance is placed in a region that is matched to the player level needed for the instance. That is, Deadmines is ca. 17-22, levelwise (IIRC) and the region it's in -- Gah, can't remember the name (Westfall, was it?) -- is around that level. So a lot of groups for Deadmines will form just in General chat for that area. Other dungeons are placed in some really remote region that does NOT match the general player level for that area (e.g., Mauraudon [level 45-50] occurs in Desolace [low to mid-30s]). This is very poor planning on Blizzard's part, in my opinion.

Of course, there is always LFG. Whenever I played WoW, I ALWAYS put myself in LFG (usually under some obscure elite quest), even if I wasn't planning to do an instance, just so that I could audit the channel. Sometimes I'd see a group forming and I'd just hop aboard ... It's very worthwhile to always stay listed in LFG.

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b) if it will be as bad as a GW pug

About the same, I guess. I dunno really. I generally don't have bad PUG experiences the way everyone seems to kvetch so much about. Usually, PUGs work out OK for me, at about a 70:30 success/fail ratio. If you start by not expecting much from a PUG, you're prepared for a bad experience and pleasantly surpised by the (many) good ones.

I've been in many a PUG in WoW with some jerk or other who ragequits after a wipe only to have the remaining four players find a (better) replacement and go on to have a great dungeon experience.

Quote:

c) how respawning effects instance play.

If your team holds together and makes good progress, you will have no problems. Respawning can, however, be a major problem in the following ways.

(i) Scenario 1. Your team wipes well into an instance. You will have to run back (as ghosts) and start the instance over from the beginning. If you have been playing for a while, the beginning of the instance will have respawned and you will, in effect, be starting over.

Only bosses do not respawn in WoW dungeons; everything else does, alas.

(ii) Scenario 2. Your healer quits and you are halfway through the instance. It's possible you might be able to find a replacement, but said replacement would have to come back through the respawns at the beginning of the instance (to say nothing of the nasties OUTSIDE the instance). In Deadmines, for example, there are loads of elite mobs that you have to fight through before you even get to the instance door. It can be a major PITA to find a replacement player and cause you to scrub the entire dungeon.

On the other hand, WoW is so diversified that, should you lose a player, someone else on your team may be able to fill the gap and you can go on to complete the dungeon anyway. I've had that happen a number of times and it can be tough, but very satisfying in its own way.

One of the reasons I enjoyed playing a hybrid class: paladin, shaman, druid, is that you can wear more than one critical hat in a dungeon, if necessary.

I dearly hope GW2 does NOT have respawning in instanced areas.

Quote:

I already know to get my Hearthstone set at the nearby inn, so I won't have to fight my way OUT of the mines after I kill the main boss! (Still find that a rather lame design flaw - you should have the option to leave the Dungeon after you complete it, right?)

You can get out of dungeons in other ways, but hearthing is the most obvious. At later levels, if you have a mage along, they can open a portal for your group to the major cities.

As for the "grouping experience" in WoW vs. GW (PUG or otherwise), I have to say that WoW, when everything comes together for you,* knocks the complete stuffing out of GW on the instance front as far as group experience and unique dungeon design goes (and this from a major GW fan). It just feels more like a group, with every player making a unique and integral contribution. And the groups vary so much. A group of 3 mages, a paladin, and a druid one time; a warrior, warlock, rogue, and 2 priests the next. The variety of workable combinations is quite stunning and, I'd say, requires much more coordination and skill than much of what I've experienced in Guild Wars.

*EDIT: My main problem with WoW is that "everything coming together for you" just doesn't happen nearly often enough.

Balan Makki · Jan 18, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

Ya see, it is the fate of the Heroes/henches in GW2 that most concerns me. All of the other GW2 innovations I've heard of sound either pretty good to me or at least not bad. But <<to the tune of "I Want My MTV">>, "I Want My Henchies …" (yeah, I know it doesn't rhyme.

). I have long felt that these poor guys (Koss and me, we go WAAAY back!) are a critical feature and one that separates GW from the rest of the herd of generic MMOs. This "single NPC companion" thing sounds like such a backward step. It's better than nothing but still ... subpar.

If they restrict its use to the persistent areas and make it "summonable" like a WoW ranger pet or WoW warlock minion, that'd be OK, I guess. Maybe even really good.

Ideally, I'd like to see at least four fully customizable Heroes (i.e., you could make them all smiting monks for a particular instance if you wanted to) for use in instanced areas only in GW2 (assuming the party size maximum in GW2 is, say, five, as in WoW). I do hope GW2 reduces the requisite party size from 8 to 4 or 5. Eight is cumbersome and unwieldy, imo. Moreover, assuming Heroes are still around, four Heroes would, I think, be fairly "micromanageable."

Just some "thinking out loud" here...

I completely agree with you. Not developing the Hero system further in GW2 to suite a more advanced player group mechanic, such as 32 person raids allowing each player to drag along their favorite 4 heroes, or the fun of having a mini team to fight against/alongside other mini teams. It just may be that the game will be so different that Heroes will not have a place in it. Heroes are one of the best parts of GW1, regardless of some of the issues that some players have with them.

I was kinda wanting Alternate Character Heroes, that you could station throughout the mists, and that you could take possession of instead of instant travel. Even calling in your team to fight in massive siege battles. There was mention that the Battles would have many qualities of an RTS, to me this means many player-directed NPCs.

There is so much that could be done with heroes if you just think about ways to make it work to encourage players to group together, with or without AI help.